--- title: "Meaning & Key Takeaway of: We are swimming upstream against a great…" description: "\"“We are swimming upstream against a great torrent of disorganization...In this, our main obligation is to establish arbitrary enclaves of order and sys..." image: "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/1ab/norbert-wiener-11835_nature_we-are-swimming-upstream-against-a-great_1320373.jpg" --- # We are swimming upstream against a great torrent of… ![“We are swimming upstream against a great torrent of disorganization...In this, our main obligation is to establish arbitrary enclaves of order and system...It is the greatest possible victory to be, to continue to be, and to have been. No defeat can deprive us of the success of having existed for…” quote by Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/1ab/norbert-wiener-11835_nature_we-are-swimming-upstream-against-a-great_1320373.jpg) [Download](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/1ab/norbert-wiener-11835_nature_we-are-swimming-upstream-against-a-great_1320373.jpg) [Open image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/1ab/norbert-wiener-11835_nature_we-are-swimming-upstream-against-a-great_1320373.jpg) > ““We are swimming upstream against a great torrent of disorganization...In this, our main obligation is to establish arbitrary enclaves of order and system...It is the greatest possible victory to be, to continue to be, and to have been. No defeat can deprive us of the success of having existed for some moment of time in a universe that seems indifferent to us. This is no defeatism...The declaration of our own nature and the attempt to build up an enclave of organization in the face of nature's overwhelming tendency to disorder is an insolence against the gods and the iron necessity that they impose. Here lies tragedy, but here lies glory too... All this represents the manner in which I believe I have been able to add something positive to the pessimism of...the existensialists. I have not replaced the gloom of existence by a philosophy which is optimistic in any Pollyanna sense, but...with a positive attitude toward the universe and toward our life in it. ”” [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) ## About This Quote This interpretation was drafted with AI assistance. It is one reading of the quote, not the author's own explanation. Human beings strive to create order amid chaos, asserting existence as a triumph over universal disorder. **In simple terms:** Creating order in a chaotic world affirms life. Key Takeaway Embrace order to counteract disorder. Themes order chaos existence Mood inspirational philosophical Type reflective motivational When to use this quote - organizing projects - community building - personal discipline Key Concepts systems theory meaning human agency Questions to Reflect On - How can we sustain order in changing environments? - What does creating order say about our purpose? A Different Perspective Order may be temporary and fragile against natural entropy. ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ No ratings yet [Defeatism](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/about/defeatism/) [Nature](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/about/nature/) [Pessimism](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/about/pessimism/) [Philosophy](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/about/philosophy/) [Positive attitude](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/about/positive-attitude/) [Swimming upstream](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/about/swimming-upstream/) ## Related quotes > [“We began our life together at a moment of natural self-pity and defeat that left an inimitable impression on both of us. The rejection…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/pat-conroy/we-began-our-life-together-at-a-moment-of-natural-self-pity-and/) [Pat Conroy](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/pat-conroy/) > [We have seen too much defeatism, too much pessimism, too much of a negative approach. The answer is simple: if you want something very…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/margo-jones/we-have-seen-too-much-defeatism-too-much-pessimism-too-much-of-a/) Margo Jones > [In the closed circle of the war cabinet, pounded by terrible report after terrible report, there had been uncertainty about whether he could fend…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/jon-meacham/in-the-closed-circle-of-the-war-cabinet-pounded-by-terrible-report/) [Jon Meacham](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/jon-meacham/) > [“Seeing the mud around a lotus is pessimism, seeing a lotus in the mud is optimism.”](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/amit-kalantri/seeing-the-mud-around-a-lotus-is-pessimism-seeing-a-lotus-in-the-mud/) [Amit Kalantri](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/amit-kalantri/) > [While a lot of people want to join the left to react against the mainstream or right, I in many ways react against the…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/rebecca-solnit/while-a-lot-of-people-want-to-join-the-left-to-react-against-the/) [Rebecca Solnit](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/rebecca-solnit/) > [What I don't like is a conformist attitude, a certain defeatism; that can't be allowed at Barcelona.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/joan-laporta/what-i-don-t-like-is-a-conformist-attitude-a-certain-defeatism-that/) [Joan Laporta](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/joan-laporta/) > [Defeatism about the past is a grievous error; defeatism about the future is a crime!](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/philip-noel-baker-baron-noel-baker/defeatism-about-the-past-is-a-grievous-error-defeatism-about-the/) Philip Noel-Baker, Baron Noel-Baker > [“Defeat is a result of people not being bold enough to grab their win.”](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/anas-hamshari/defeat-is-a-result-of-people-not-being-bold-enough-to-grab-their-win/) [Anas Hamshari](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/anas-hamshari/) > [I've learned that next to the atomic bomb, the greatest danger is defeatism, despair, and inadequate awareness of what human beings possess. I feel…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norman-cousins/i-ve-learned-that-next-to-the-atomic-bomb-the-greatest-danger-is/) [Norman Cousins](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norman-cousins/) > [One of the more serious temptations which stifles boldness and zeal is a defeatism, which turns us into querulous and disillusioned pessimists, sourpusses.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/pope-francis/one-of-the-more-serious-temptations-which-stifles-boldness-and-zeal/) [Pope Francis](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/pope-francis/) > [“If I felt less, I could do more.”](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/charles-dickens/if-i-felt-less-i-could-do-more/) [Charles Dickens](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/charles-dickens/) > [“In 1965, a psychologist named Martin Seligman started shocking dogs. He was trying to expand on the research of Pavlov--the guy who could make…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/david-mcraney/in-1965-a-psychologist-named-martin-seligman-started-shocking-dogs-he/) [David McRaney](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/david-mcraney/) > [“A battle is won by the side that is absolutely determined to win. Why did we lose the battle of Austerlitz? Our casualties were…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/leo-tolstoy/a-battle-is-won-by-the-side-that-is-absolutely-determined-to-win-why/) [Leo Tolstoy](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/leo-tolstoy/) > [You defeat defeatism with confidence.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/vince-lombardi/you-defeat-defeatism-with-confidence/) [Vince Lombardi](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/vince-lombardi/) > [That is part of the problem, that lack of belief in yourself because you don't see success around you. I guess that breeds defeatism,…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/kano/that-is-part-of-the-problem-that-lack-of-belief-in-yourself-because/) [Kano](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/kano/) ## More by Norbert Wiener > [It is possible to believe in progress as a fact without believing in progress as an ethical principle; but in the catechism of many…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/it-is-possible-to-believe-in-progress-as-a-fact-without-believing-in/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [“What I have said about the newspapers and the movies applies equally to the radio, to television, and even to bookselling. Thus we are…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/what-i-have-said-about-the-newspapers-and-the-movies-applies-equally/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [A faith which we follow upon orders imposed from outside is no faith, and a community which puts its dependence upon such a pseudo-faith…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/a-faith-which-we-follow-upon-orders-imposed-from-outside-is-no-faith/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [Information is information; it is neither matter nor energy.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/information-is-information-it-is-neither-matter-nor-energy/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [the science of control and communication in the animal and the machine](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/the-science-of-control-and-communication-in-the-animal-and-the-machine/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [The sense of tragedy is that the world is not a pleasant little nest made for our protection, but a vast and largely hostile…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/the-sense-of-tragedy-is-that-the-world-is-not-a-pleasant-little-nest/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [The idea that information can be stored in a changing world without an overwhelming depreciation of its value is false. It is scarcely less…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/the-idea-that-information-can-be-stored-in-a-changing-world-without/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [The automatic machine, whatever we thinkof any feelings it may or may not have, is the precise economic equivalent of the slave.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/the-automatic-machine-whatever-we-thinkof-any-feelings-it-may-or-may/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [Science is better paid than at any time in the past. The results of this pay have been to attract into science many of…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/science-is-better-paid-than-at-any-time-in-the-past-the-results-of/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [“A proof represents a logical process which has come to a definitive conclusion in a finite number of stages. However, a logical machine following…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/a-proof-represents-a-logical-process-which-has-come-to-a-definitive/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [Science is a way of life which can only flourish when men are free to have faith.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/science-is-a-way-of-life-which-can-only-flourish-when-men-are-free-to/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [Any use of a human being in which less is demanded of him and less is attributed to him than his full status is…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/any-use-of-a-human-being-in-which-less-is-demanded-of-him-and-less-is/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [I have said that science is impossible without faith. ... Inductive logic, the logic of Bacon, is rather something on which we can act…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/i-have-said-that-science-is-impossible-without-faith-inductive-logic/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [The nervous system and the automatic machine are fundamentally alike in that they are devices, which make decisions on the basis of decisions they…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/the-nervous-system-and-the-automatic-machine-are-fundamentally-alike/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) > [A significant idea of organization cannot be obtained in a world in which everything is necessary and nothing is contingent.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norbert-wiener/a-significant-idea-of-organization-cannot-be-obtained-in-a-world-in/) [Norbert Wiener](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) [Explore all 57 Norbert Wiener quotes ](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norbert-wiener/) ## More Defeatism quotes > [“We began our life together at a moment of natural self-pity and defeat that left an inimitable impression on both of us. The rejection…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/pat-conroy/we-began-our-life-together-at-a-moment-of-natural-self-pity-and/) [Pat Conroy](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/pat-conroy/) > [You defeat defeatism with confidence.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/vince-lombardi/you-defeat-defeatism-with-confidence/) [Vince Lombardi](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/vince-lombardi/) > [“A battle is won by the side that is absolutely determined to win. Why did we lose the battle of Austerlitz? Our casualties were…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/leo-tolstoy/a-battle-is-won-by-the-side-that-is-absolutely-determined-to-win-why/) [Leo Tolstoy](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/leo-tolstoy/) > [“In 1965, a psychologist named Martin Seligman started shocking dogs. He was trying to expand on the research of Pavlov--the guy who could make…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/david-mcraney/in-1965-a-psychologist-named-martin-seligman-started-shocking-dogs-he/) [David McRaney](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/david-mcraney/) > [“If I felt less, I could do more.”](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/charles-dickens/if-i-felt-less-i-could-do-more/) [Charles Dickens](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/charles-dickens/) > [One of the more serious temptations which stifles boldness and zeal is a defeatism, which turns us into querulous and disillusioned pessimists, sourpusses.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/pope-francis/one-of-the-more-serious-temptations-which-stifles-boldness-and-zeal/) [Pope Francis](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/pope-francis/) > [I've learned that next to the atomic bomb, the greatest danger is defeatism, despair, and inadequate awareness of what human beings possess. I feel…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/norman-cousins/i-ve-learned-that-next-to-the-atomic-bomb-the-greatest-danger-is/) [Norman Cousins](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/norman-cousins/) > [“Defeat is a result of people not being bold enough to grab their win.”](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/anas-hamshari/defeat-is-a-result-of-people-not-being-bold-enough-to-grab-their-win/) [Anas Hamshari](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/anas-hamshari/) > [Defeatism about the past is a grievous error; defeatism about the future is a crime!](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/philip-noel-baker-baron-noel-baker/defeatism-about-the-past-is-a-grievous-error-defeatism-about-the/) Philip Noel-Baker, Baron Noel-Baker > [What I don't like is a conformist attitude, a certain defeatism; that can't be allowed at Barcelona.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/joan-laporta/what-i-don-t-like-is-a-conformist-attitude-a-certain-defeatism-that/) [Joan Laporta](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/joan-laporta/) > [While a lot of people want to join the left to react against the mainstream or right, I in many ways react against the…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/rebecca-solnit/while-a-lot-of-people-want-to-join-the-left-to-react-against-the/) [Rebecca Solnit](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/rebecca-solnit/) > [“Seeing the mud around a lotus is pessimism, seeing a lotus in the mud is optimism.”](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/amit-kalantri/seeing-the-mud-around-a-lotus-is-pessimism-seeing-a-lotus-in-the-mud/) [Amit Kalantri](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/amit-kalantri/) > [In the closed circle of the war cabinet, pounded by terrible report after terrible report, there had been uncertainty about whether he could fend…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/jon-meacham/in-the-closed-circle-of-the-war-cabinet-pounded-by-terrible-report/) [Jon Meacham](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/jon-meacham/) > [We have seen too much defeatism, too much pessimism, too much of a negative approach. The answer is simple: if you want something very…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/margo-jones/we-have-seen-too-much-defeatism-too-much-pessimism-too-much-of-a/) Margo Jones > [That is part of the problem, that lack of belief in yourself because you don't see success around you. I guess that breeds defeatism,…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/kano/that-is-part-of-the-problem-that-lack-of-belief-in-yourself-because/) [Kano](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/kano/) [Browse all 29 Defeatism quotes ](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/about/defeatism/) ```json { "@context": "https://schema.org", "@graph": [ { "@type": "Quotation", "text": "“We are swimming upstream against a great torrent of disorganization...In this, our main obligation is to establish arbitrary enclaves of order and system...It is the greatest possible victory to be, to continue to be, and to have been. No defeat can deprive us of the success of having existed for some moment of time in a universe that seems indifferent to us. This is no defeatism...The declaration of our own nature and the attempt to build up an enclave of organization in the face of nature's overwhelming tendency to disorder is an insolence against the gods and the iron necessity that they impose. Here lies tragedy, but here lies glory too... All this represents the manner in which I believe I have been able to add something positive to the pessimism of...the existensialists. 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