--- title: "Meaning & Key Takeaway of: What I am arguing, in effect, is that the…" description: "\"What I am arguing, in effect, is that the full democratic system of the second half of the fifth century B.C. would not have been introduced had there ..." image: "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/979/moses-finley-35513_arguing_what-i-am-arguing-in-effect-is-that-the_1571290.jpg" --- # What I am arguing, in effect, is that the full democratic… ![“What I am arguing, in effect, is that the full democratic system of the second half of the fifth century B.C. would not have been introduced had there been no Athenian empire.” quote by Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/979/moses-finley-35513_arguing_what-i-am-arguing-in-effect-is-that-the_1571290.jpg) [Download](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/979/moses-finley-35513_arguing_what-i-am-arguing-in-effect-is-that-the_1571290.jpg) [Open image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/979/moses-finley-35513_arguing_what-i-am-arguing-in-effect-is-that-the_1571290.jpg) > “What I am arguing, in effect, is that the full democratic system of the second half of the fifth century B.C. would not have been introduced had there been no Athenian empire.” [Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) ## About This Quote This interpretation was drafted with AI assistance. It is one reading of the quote, not the author's own explanation. Athenian imperial power enabled the development of democratic institutions that might not have emerged otherwise. **In simple terms:** Empire helped democracy grow. Key Takeaway Consider how power structures affect political evolution. Themes politics history democracy empire institutional development causality Mood critical analytical Type historical philosophical When to use this quote - policy design - education reform - citizen engagement - historical research Key Concepts political theory ancient history institutional analysis Questions to Reflect On - What are modern parallels to imperial influence on governance? - Can democracy thrive without prior power imbalances? A Different Perspective Democracy can also arise from coercive or exploitative foundations. ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ No ratings yet [Athenians](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/about/athenians/) [Empires](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/about/empires/) ## Related quotes > [... the Athenian lawmaker Solon decreed it a crime for any citizen to shrink from controversy.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/john-f-kennedy/the-athenian-lawmaker-solon-decreed-it-a-crime-for-any-citizen-to/) [John F. Kennedy](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/john-f-kennedy/) > [Socrates said he was not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/plutarch/socrates-said-he-was-not-an-athenian-or-a-greek-but-a-citizen-of-the/) [Plutarch](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/plutarch/) > [An Athenian citizen does not neglect his state because he takes care of his own household; even those of us who are engaged in…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/pericles/an-athenian-citizen-does-not-neglect-his-state-because-he-takes-care/) [Pericles](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/pericles/) > [Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/james-madison/had-every-athenian-citizen-been-a-socrates-every-athenian-assembly/) [James Madison](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/james-madison/) > [Useful as a war against France, undertaken by the Government against the will of the people would be for our revolutionary development, just so…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/ferdinand-lassalle/useful-as-a-war-against-france-undertaken-by-the-government-against/) [Ferdinand Lassalle](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/ferdinand-lassalle/) > [“Aramaic was spoken in certain regions of upper Egypt in the fifth century B.C.”](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/james-john-courtenay/aramaic-was-spoken-in-certain-regions-of-upper-egypt-in-the-fifth/) [James John Courtenay](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/james-john-courtenay/) > [“By the early fifth century the problem had become so acute that some theologians updated the church’s theology of witness so that they no…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/alan-kreider/by-the-early-fifth-century-the-problem-had-become-so-acute-that-some/) [Alan Kreider](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/alan-kreider/) > [“I sit up talking till daybreak with the young people and we have almost Athenian evenings, Athenian, I mean, only in their intellectual subtlety…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/fyodor-dostoyevsky/i-sit-up-talking-till-daybreak-with-the-young-people-and-we-have/) [Fyodor Dostoyevsky](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/fyodor-dostoyevsky/) > [I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/diogenes/i-am-not-an-athenian-or-a-greek-but-a-citizen-of-the-world/) [Diogenes](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/diogenes/) > [“They too, knew this beautiful and harrowing landscape; they'd had the same experience of looking up from their books with fifth-century eyes and finding…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/donna-tartt/they-too-knew-this-beautiful-and-harrowing-landscape-they-d-had-the/) [Donna Tartt](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/donna-tartt/) > [“An inscription, dating to the late fifth century B.C., forbids that anyone tan hides or throw litter into the Ilissos, further stipulating that no…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/anonymous/an-inscription-dating-to-the-late-fifth-century-b-c-forbids-that/) [Anonymous](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/anonymous/) > [“They, too, knew this beautiful and harrowing landscape, centuries dead; they'd had the experience of looking up from their books with fifth-century eyes and…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/donna-tartt/they-too-knew-this-beautiful-and-harrowing-landscape-centuries-dead/) [donna tartt](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/donna-tartt/) > [You make learning fun. Like a children’s book or after school special. Tell me about your…um, Athenian women.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/richelle-mead/you-make-learning-fun-like-a-children-s-book-or-after-school-special/) [Richelle Mead](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/richelle-mead/) > [If the Savior had come back to earth at the beginning of the fifth century A.D., I doubt whether he would have recognized the…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/milton-r-hunter/if-the-savior-had-come-back-to-earth-at-the-beginning-of-the-fifth/) [Milton R. Hunter](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/milton-r-hunter/) > [The story of the fifth century was one of the exploitation of imperial weakness. Thus the Western Empire died.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/adrian-goldsworthy/the-story-of-the-fifth-century-was-one-of-the-exploitation-of/) [Adrian Goldsworthy](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/adrian-goldsworthy/) ## More by Moses Finley > [Knowledge for its own sake was meaningless, its mere accumulation a waste of time. Knowledge must lead to understanding.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/knowledge-for-its-own-sake-was-meaningless-its-mere-accumulation-a/) [Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) > [Historical explanation is not identical with moral judgment.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/historical-explanation-is-not-identical-with-moral-judgment/) [Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) > [We must consider not only why the classical theory of democracy appears to be in contradiction with the observed practice, but also why the…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/we-must-consider-not-only-why-the-classical-theory-of-democracy/) [Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) > [Political leaders, lacking documents that could be kept secret (apart from the occasional exception), lacking media they could control, were of necessity brought into…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/political-leaders-lacking-documents-that-could-be-kept-secret-apart/) [Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) > [A genuinely political society, in which discussion and debate are an essential technique, is a society full of risks.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/a-genuinely-political-society-in-which-discussion-and-debate-are-an/) [Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) > [Ideal goals are a menace in themselves, as much in more modern philosophers as in Plato.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/ideal-goals-are-a-menace-in-themselves-as-much-in-more-modern/) [Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) > [Perhaps the best known, and certainly the most vaunted, "discovery" of modern public opinion research is the indifference and ignorance of a majority of…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/perhaps-the-best-known-and-certainly-the-most-vaunted-discovery-of/) [Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) > [Faction is the greatest evil and the most common danger. "Faction" is the conventional English translation of the Greek stasis, one of the most…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/faction-is-the-greatest-evil-and-the-most-common-danger-faction-is/) [Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) > [man is by nature designed to live in the polis, the highest form of koinonia, community; that is man's end or goal if he…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/man-is-by-nature-designed-to-live-in-the-polis-the-highest-form-of/) [Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) > [In the western world today everyone is a democrat.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/in-the-western-world-today-everyone-is-a-democrat/) [Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) > [If I had to choose one which best characterized the condition of being a political leader in Athens, the word would be "tension".](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/if-i-had-to-choose-one-which-best-characterized-the-condition-of/) [Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) > [It is a mark of civilised man that he seeks to understand his traditions, and to criticise them, not to swallow them whole.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/it-is-a-mark-of-civilised-man-that-he-seeks-to-understand-his/) [Moses Finley](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) [Explore all 13 Moses Finley quotes ](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/) ## More Arguing quotes > [I do wish you wouldn't argue with me when I'm knitting.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/gerald-durrell/i-do-wish-you-wouldn-t-argue-with-me-when-i-m-knitting/) [Gerald Durrell](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/gerald-durrell/) > [Any comprehensive doctrine, religious or secular, can be introduced into any political argument at any time, but I argue that people who do this…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/john-rawls/any-comprehensive-doctrine-religious-or-secular-can-be-introduced/) [John Rawls](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/john-rawls/) > [It's fine to talk about politics with people you agree with. But it is rude to argue about politics with people you disagree with.…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/lawrence-lessig/it-s-fine-to-talk-about-politics-with-people-you-agree-with-but-it-is/) [Lawrence Lessig](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/lawrence-lessig/) > [Men are fair, and they have learned not to personalize anger - they can disagree with you and argue to the bone, but afterward…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/warren-farrell/men-are-fair-and-they-have-learned-not-to-personalize-anger-they-can/) [Warren Farrell](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/warren-farrell/) > [When Eudæmonidas heard a philosopher arguing that only a wise man can be a good general, "This is a wonderful speech," said he; "but…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/plutarch/when-eud-monidas-heard-a-philosopher-arguing-that-only-a-wise-man-can/) [Plutarch](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/plutarch/) > [Fasting is required, staying away from fighting and arguing and bombing of masjids is still going on. Hatred is still manifested between Sunni and…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/louis-farrakhan/fasting-is-required-staying-away-from-fighting-and-arguing-and/) [Louis Farrakhan](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/louis-farrakhan/) > [The problem for the Left, however, is that the moment it stops painting the Right as vile, it has to argue the issues.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/dennis-prager/the-problem-for-the-left-however-is-that-the-moment-it-stops-painting/) [Dennis Prager](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/dennis-prager/) > [To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/thomas-paine/to-argue-with-a-person-who-has-renounced-the-use-of-reason-is-like/) [Thomas Paine](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/thomas-paine/) > [You can argue that the Terminator movies reboot their world each time they go back in time, but that doesn't negate the value of…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/david-hayter/you-can-argue-that-the-terminator-movies-reboot-their-world-each-time/) [David Hayter](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/david-hayter/) > [We may argue eloquently that 'Honesty is the best Policy' - unfortunately, the moment honesty is adopted for the sake of policy it mysteriously…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/dorothy-l-sayers/we-may-argue-eloquently-that-honesty-is-the-best-policy-unfortunately/) [Dorothy L. Sayers](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/dorothy-l-sayers/) > [I'm a very serious person, but I don't take myself very seriously and I would rather laugh all day than argue.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/stone-cold-steve-austin/i-m-a-very-serious-person-but-i-don-t-take-myself-very-seriously-and/) [Stone Cold Steve Austin](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/stone-cold-steve-austin/) > [These eyes, tho' clear To outward view of blemish or of spot, Bereft of light, their seeing have forgot, Nor to their idle orbs…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/john-milton/these-eyes-tho-clear-to-outward-view-of-blemish-or-of-spot-bereft-of/) [John Milton](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/john-milton/) > [There's crucial distinction that has to be drawn between the Shari'a, which is this hugely expansive vision of cosmic order that I've been describing,…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/sadakat-kadri/there-s-crucial-distinction-that-has-to-be-drawn-between-the-shari-a/) [Sadakat Kadri](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/sadakat-kadri/) > [Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. They don't understand truth nor do they meditate on it. Who can define what is…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/guru-nanak/only-fools-argue-whether-to-eat-meat-or-not-they-don-t-understand/) [Guru Nanak](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/guru-nanak/) > [The surest sign that you haven't any sense is to argue with one who hasn't.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/laurence-j-peter/the-surest-sign-that-you-haven-t-any-sense-is-to-argue-with-one-who/) [Laurence J. Peter](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/laurence-j-peter/) Browse all 1,908 Arguing quotes ```json { "@context": "https://schema.org", "@graph": [ { "@type": "Quotation", "text": "What I am arguing, in effect, is that the full democratic system of the second half of the fifth century B.C. would not have been introduced had there been no Athenian empire.", "creator": { "@type": "Person", "name": "Moses Finley" }, "isPartOf": { "@id": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/#website" }, "url": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/what-i-am-arguing-in-effect-is-that-the-full-democratic-system-of-the/", "about": { "@type": "Thing", "name": "Arguing" }, "@id": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/what-i-am-arguing-in-effect-is-that-the-full-democratic-system-of-the/#quotation", "image": { "@type": "ImageObject", "@id": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/979/moses-finley-35513_arguing_what-i-am-arguing-in-effect-is-that-the_1571290.jpg", "contentUrl": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/979/moses-finley-35513_arguing_what-i-am-arguing-in-effect-is-that-the_1571290.jpg", "url": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/979/moses-finley-35513_arguing_what-i-am-arguing-in-effect-is-that-the_1571290.jpg", "width": 1080, "height": 1080, "caption": "“What I am arguing, in effect, is that the full democratic system of the second half of the fifth century…” — Moses Finley", "creditText": "SMS4Smile Quotes", "creator": { "@id": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/#organization" } } }, { "@type": "BreadcrumbList", "itemListElement": [ { "@type": "ListItem", "position": 1, "name": "Home", "item": "https://sms4smile.com/" }, { "@type": "ListItem", "position": 2, "name": "Quotes", "item": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/" }, { "@type": "ListItem", "position": 3, "name": "Moses Finley", "item": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/moses-finley/" }, { "@type": "ListItem", "position": 4, "name": "What I am arguing, in effect,...", "item": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/what-i-am-arguing-in-effect-is-that-the-full-democratic-system-of-the/" } ], "@id": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/moses-finley/what-i-am-arguing-in-effect-is-that-the-full-democratic-system-of-the/#breadcrumb" }, { "@type": "WebSite", "@id": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/#website", "name": "SMS4Smile Quotes", "url": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/", "publisher": { "@id": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/#organization" } }, { "@type": "Organization", "@id": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/#organization", "name": "SMS4Smile Quotes", "url": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/", "logo": { "@type": "ImageObject", "url": "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/wp-content/themes/sq/assets/icons/icon-512.png", "width": 512, "height": 512 } } ] } ```