---
title: "32 Debt Quotes By Michael Hudson"
description: "32 Debt quotes by Michael Hudson. Plus more from Michael Hudson and more Debt sayings from other authors."
image: "https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/1af/michael-hudson-2134_banks_in-fact-there-s-no-way-that-banks-can-be_3014942.png"
---

> [In fact, there's no way that banks can be paid everything that they're owed.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/in-fact-there-s-no-way-that-banks-can-be-paid-everything-that-they-re/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/1af/michael-hudson-2134_banks_in-fact-there-s-no-way-that-banks-can-be_3014942.png)

> [Paying debt service to banks leaves less income to buy goods and services.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/paying-debt-service-to-banks-leaves-less-income-to-buy-goods-and/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/3fa/michael-hudson-2134_debt_paying-debt-service-to-banks-leaves-less_599574.png)

> [Stocks always go down much faster than they go up. That's why it's called a crash. People who put their money into…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/stocks-always-go-down-much-faster-than-they-go-up-that-s-why-it-s/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/4e8/michael-hudson-2134_crash_stocks-always-go-down-much-faster-than-t_1310649.png)

> [Today, people are having to spend so much of their money, to acquire a house and to get an education that they…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/today-people-are-having-to-spend-so-much-of-their-money-to-acquire-a/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/bda/michael-hudson-2134_acquire_today-people-are-having-to-spend-so-much_477531.png)

> [The price decline is a result of having to pay debts. That drains income from the circular flow between production and consumption…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/the-price-decline-is-a-result-of-having-to-pay-debts-that-drains/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/c43/michael-hudson-2134_consumption_the-price-decline-is-a-result-of-having_1188584.png)

> [As you have to pay more interest and amortization on what you owe, you're left with less and less money to buy…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/as-you-have-to-pay-more-interest-and-amortization-on-what-you-owe-you/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/400/michael-hudson-2134_debt_as-you-have-to-pay-more-interest-and-amo_2206499.png)

> [Debts grow and grow. And the more they grow, the more they shrink the economy. When you shrink the economy, you shrink…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/debts-grow-and-grow-and-the-more-they-grow-the-more-they-shrink-the/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/684/michael-hudson-2134_ability_debts-grow-and-grow-and-the-more-they-gr_667076.png)

> [Basically, unless you're willing to write down debts and save the economy, you're going to have deflation and a steady drain in…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/basically-unless-you-re-willing-to-write-down-debts-and-save-the/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/3fb/michael-hudson-2134_customer_basically-unless-you-re-willing-to-write_2121944.png)

> [When there's deflation, it means that although most markets are shrinking and people have less to spend, the 1% that hold the…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/when-there-s-deflation-it-means-that-although-most-markets-are/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/a78/michael-hudson-2134_creditors_when-there-s-deflation-it-means-that-alt_787444.png)

> [Normally, if someone goes bankrupt, you wipe out the debt and get a fresh start. But that's not permitted with student loans.…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/normally-if-someone-goes-bankrupt-you-wipe-out-the-debt-and-get-a/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/eb2/michael-hudson-2134_debt_normally-if-someone-goes-bankrupt-you-wi_470074.png)

> [The problems of 2008 were never cured. The Federal Reserve's solution to the crisis was to lend the economy enough money to…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/the-problems-of-2008-were-never-cured-the-federal-reserve-s-solution/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/cdb/michael-hudson-2134_balance_the-problems-of-2008-were-never-cured-th_899545.png)

> [If you have to pay about forty to forty-three percent of your income for housing, you also have to pay fifteen percent…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/if-you-have-to-pay-about-forty-to-forty-three-percent-of-your-income/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/4fc/michael-hudson-2134_cards_if-you-have-to-pay-about-forty-to-forty_1661965.png)

> [People tend to think that paying a debt is like going out and buying a car, buying more food or buying more…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/people-tend-to-think-that-paying-a-debt-is-like-going-out-and-buying/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/bfb/michael-hudson-2134_buying_people-tend-to-think-that-paying-a-debt_428655.png)

> [There are two definitions of deflation. Most people think of it simply as prices going down. But debt deflation is what happens…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/there-are-two-definitions-of-deflation-most-people-think-of-it-simply/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/0a5/michael-hudson-2134_cards_there-are-two-definitions-of-deflation-m_1446713.jpg)

> [In housing you have jingle mail and you can walk away and leave the bank holding the bag. In the case of…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/in-housing-you-have-jingle-mail-and-you-can-walk-away-and-leave-the/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/d19/michael-hudson-2134_agency_in-housing-you-have-jingle-mail-and-you_2131228.png)

> [The bank's product is debt, because the banks want to make sure that they can get paid for the debt. But ultimately…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/the-bank-s-product-is-debt-because-the-banks-want-to-make-sure-that/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/36e/michael-hudson-2134_creditors_the-bank-s-product-is-debt-because-the-b_1412067.jpg)

> [People think of a business cycle, which is a boom followed by a recession and then automatic stabilizers revive the economy. But…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/people-think-of-a-business-cycle-which-is-a-boom-followed-by-a/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/915/michael-hudson-2134_business_people-think-of-a-business-cycle-which-i_2415360.png)

> [The worst loophole is what Donald Trump has talked about: the tax deductibility of interest. If you let real estate owners or…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/the-worst-loophole-is-what-donald-trump-has-talked-about-the-tax/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/18f/michael-hudson-2134_company_the-worst-loophole-is-what-donald-trump_807243.png)

> [More and more money is being extracted from of the production and consumption economy to pay the FIRE sector. That's what causes…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/more-and-more-money-is-being-extracted-from-of-the-production-and/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/a39/michael-hudson-2134_causes_more-and-more-money-is-being-extracted-f_869156.jpg)

> [The banks' product is debt. They try to tell customers that "debts are good for you," but the customers can't afford any…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/the-banks-product-is-debt-they-try-to-tell-customers-that-debts-are/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/a20/michael-hudson-2134_business_the-banks-product-is-debt-they-try-to-te_572140.png)

> [We're in a chronic debt-deflation. There's no way we can recover unless you write down the debts. And that's what the IMF…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/we-re-in-a-chronic-debt-deflation-there-s-no-way-we-can-recover/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/bf8/michael-hudson-2134_business_we-re-in-a-chronic-debt-deflation-there_1417408.png)

> [Debt deflation is when there's less money that people have to spend out of their paychecks on goods and services, because they're…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/debt-deflation-is-when-there-s-less-money-that-people-have-to-spend/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/078/michael-hudson-2134_customer_debt-deflation-is-when-there-s-less-mone_3141176.png)

> [We're at the end of long cycle that began in 1945, loading the economy with debt. We're not going to be able…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/we-re-at-the-end-of-long-cycle-that-began-in-1945-loading-the-economy/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/4a3/michael-hudson-2134_able_we-re-at-the-end-of-long-cycle-that-bega_342015.png)

> [Mathematically, debts grow exponentially at compound interest. Banks recycle the interest into new loans, so debts grow exponentially, faster than the economy…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/mathematically-debts-grow-exponentially-at-compound-interest-banks/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/fdf/michael-hudson-2134_compound-interest_mathematically-debts-grow-exponentially_1022192.png)

> [Throughout history, the only way of restoring stability is to write down the debts. That is treated now as if it's something…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/throughout-history-the-only-way-of-restoring-stability-is-to-write/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/47f/michael-hudson-2134_debt_throughout-history-the-only-way-of-resto_2609660.png)

> [When people are running up more and more debt for housing, they call that "real wealth." It exposes what's wrong in the…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/when-people-are-running-up-more-and-more-debt-for-housing-they-call/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/29c/michael-hudson-2134_austerity_when-people-are-running-up-more-and-more_229685.png)

> [Oil now, as a result of the Saudi production, is priced so low that there are not going to be new fracking…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/oil-now-as-a-result-of-the-saudi-production-is-priced-so-low-that/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/0a9/michael-hudson-2134_climate_oil-now-as-a-result-of-the-saudi-product_222662.jpg)

> [What do the 5%, or the 1% actually use their money for? They lend it back to the economy at large, they…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/what-do-the-5-or-the-1-actually-use-their-money-for-they-lend-it-back/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/470/michael-hudson-2134_bottom_what-do-the-5-or-the-1-actually-use-thei_639232.jpg)

> [You'll have to have the governments sell off all of their public domains; sell off their railroads, sell off their public land.…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/you-ll-have-to-have-the-governments-sell-off-all-of-their-public/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/917/michael-hudson-2134_clock_you-ll-have-to-have-the-governments-sell_1902093.jpg)

> [The only way people can repay the debt is by cutting their living standards very drastically. It means agreeing to shift their…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/the-only-way-people-can-repay-the-debt-is-by-cutting-their-living/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/38b/michael-hudson-2134_benefits_the-only-way-people-can-repay-the-debt-i_2999776.png)

> [The most serious problems lie in the financial sphere, where the economy's debt overhead has grown more rapidly than the 'real' economy's…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/the-most-serious-problems-lie-in-the-financial-sphere-where-the/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/843/michael-hudson-2134_ability_the-most-serious-problems-lie-in-the-fin_1562200.jpg)

> [So the Bush-Obama administration has taken a fiscal stance diametrically opposed to that of the patron saint of free enterprise. While escalating…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/so-the-bush-obama-administration-has-taken-a-fiscal-stance/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

[Image](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/i/a2a/michael-hudson-2134_administration_so-the-bush-obama-administration-has-tak_1084344.png)

## Other authors on Debt

## More by Michael Hudson

> [Europe is creating the flight of refugees that's tearing it apart politically, and leading rightwing nationalist parties to gain power to withdraw from the…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/europe-is-creating-the-flight-of-refugees-that-s-tearing-it-apart/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [This is not really currency that circulates. It's like the old joke about expensive vintage wine. Wine prices will go up and once in…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/this-is-not-really-currency-that-circulates-it-s-like-the-old-joke/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [Nobody prefers to earn income any more, because that's taxable. Rich people prefer to make capital gains.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/nobody-prefers-to-earn-income-any-more-because-that-s-taxable-rich/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [Nothing could be better for the economy than to get rid of fracking.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/nothing-could-be-better-for-the-economy-than-to-get-rid-of-fracking/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [If you end internet neutrality and permit mergers of the big information technology corporations, that's a form of rent seeking. It's part of today's…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/if-you-end-internet-neutrality-and-permit-mergers-of-the-big/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [Deflation means a slowdown of income growth. Markets shrink, new capital investment and employment also taper off, so wages decline. That is what's happening…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/deflation-means-a-slowdown-of-income-growth-markets-shrink-new/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [What's bad for the frackers usually is good for the rest of the world.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/what-s-bad-for-the-frackers-usually-is-good-for-the-rest-of-the-world/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [You could say that the vote to withdraw from Europe is, it's really a vote of the British middle class, the working class, to…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/you-could-say-that-the-vote-to-withdraw-from-europe-is-it-s-really-a/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [Actually, high housing prices don't help the economy. They raise the cost of living.](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/actually-high-housing-prices-don-t-help-the-economy-they-raise-the/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [When economists speak of money, they neglect that all money and credit is debt. That is the essence of bookkeeping and accounting. There are…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/when-economists-speak-of-money-they-neglect-that-all-money-and-credit/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [The United States and Europe are in a state of debt deflation, where people and businesses have to pay banks instead of spending their…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/the-united-states-and-europe-are-in-a-state-of-debt-deflation-where/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [On the flat tax, the more you compress the tax rates, the more you untax where the income is really made, at the top…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/on-the-flat-tax-the-more-you-compress-the-tax-rates-the-more-you/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [Income is sucked upward to the creditors, who then foreclose on the assets of debtors. This shrinks tax revenue, forcing public budgets into deficit.…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/income-is-sucked-upward-to-the-creditors-who-then-foreclose-on-the/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [Debtor countries may postpone the inevitable by borrowing from the IMF or U.S. Treasury to buy out bondholders. This saves the latter from taking…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/debtor-countries-may-postpone-the-inevitable-by-borrowing-from-the/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

> [No price is too high to pay to try to make the financial system go on a little bit longer. But ultimately it can't…](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/michael-hudson/no-price-is-too-high-to-pay-to-try-to-make-the-financial-system-go-on/)

[Michael Hudson](https://sms4smile.com/quotes/author/michael-hudson/)

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                        "text": "Debts grow and grow. And the more they grow, the more they shrink the economy. When you shrink the economy, you shrink the ability to pay the debts, so it's all an illusion that the system can be saved. The question is, how long are people going to be willing to live in this illusion?",
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                        "text": "When there's deflation, it means that although most markets are shrinking and people have less to spend, the 1% that hold the 99% in debt are getting all the growth in wealth and income. Deflation means that income is being transferred to the 1%, that is, to the creditors and property owners.",
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                        "text": "Normally, if someone goes bankrupt, you wipe out the debt and get a fresh start. But that's not permitted with student loans. So the effect is to impoverish many graduates with very high debts.",
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                        "text": "The problems of 2008 were never cured. The Federal Reserve's solution to the crisis was to lend the economy enough money to borrow its way out of debt. It thought that if it could subsidize banks lending homeowners enough money to buy houses from people who are defaulting, then the bank balance sheets would end up okay.",
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                        "text": "If you have to pay about forty to forty-three percent of your income for housing, you also have to pay fifteen percent of your paycheck for the FICA for Social Security wage withholding. You have to pay medical care, you have to pay the banks for your credit card debt, student loans. Then you only have about twenty-five or thirty-five percent, maybe one-third of your salary to buy goods and services. That's all.",
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                        "text": "People tend to think that paying a debt is like going out and buying a car, buying more food or buying more clothes. But it really isn't. When you pay a debt to the bank, the banks use this money to lend out to somebody else or to yourself. The interest charges to carry this debt go up and up as debt grows.",
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                        "text": "There are two definitions of deflation. Most people think of it simply as prices going down. But debt deflation is what happens when people have to spend more and more of their income to carry the debts that they've run up - to pay their mortgage debt, to pay the credit card debt, to pay student loans.",
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                        "text": "In housing you have jingle mail and you can walk away and leave the bank holding the bag. In the case of student loans, the debt follows you through life, and the banks or government will turn it over to collection agencies that are not very nice people and can do all sorts of harassing things to you. It's becoming a nightmare.",
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                        "text": "The bank's product is debt, because the banks want to make sure that they can get paid for the debt. But ultimately the only party that can pay the debt is the government, because it runs the printing presses. So the debts ultimately either are paid by the government, or they're paid by a huge transfer of property from debtors to creditors - or, the debts are written off.",
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                        "text": "People think of a business cycle, which is a boom followed by a recession and then automatic stabilizers revive the economy. But this time we can't revive. The reason is that every recovery since 1945 has begun with a higher, and higher level of debt. The debt is so high now, that since 2008 we've been in what I call, debt deflation.",
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                        "text": "The worst loophole is what Donald Trump has talked about: the tax deductibility of interest. If you let real estate owners or corporate raiders borrow the money to buy a property or company, and then pay interest to the bondholders, you'll load the company you take over with debt. But you don't have to pay taxes on the profits that you pay out in this way. You can deduct the interest from your tax liability.",
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                        "text": "When people are running up more and more debt for housing, they call that \"real wealth.\" It exposes what's wrong in the mainstream economics and why most of the economics that justifies austerity programs and economic shrinkage is in the textbooks is not scientific. Junk economics denies the role of debt and denies the fact that the economic system we have now is dysfunctional.",
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                        "text": "Oil now, as a result of the Saudi production, is priced so low that there are not going to be new fracking investments made. A lot of companies that have gone into fracking are heavily debt-leveraged, and are beginning to default on their loans. The next wave of defaults that banks are talking about is probably going to be in the fracking industry. When the costs of production are so much more than they can end up getting for the oil, they just stop producing and stop paying their loans.",
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                        "text": "What do the 5%, or the 1% actually use their money for? They lend it back to the economy at large, they load it down with debt. They make their money by lending to the bottom 95%, or the bottom 99%. When you give them more after-tax income, it enables them to buy even more control of government, even more control of election campaigns. They're not going to spend this money back into the goods-and-services economy.",
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                        "text": "You'll have to have the governments sell off all of their public domains; sell off their railroads, sell off their public land. You'll essentially have to introduce neo-feudalism. You'll have to roll the clock of history back a thousand years, and reduce the European population to debt slavery. It's as simple a solution as the Eurozone has imposed on Greece. And it's a solution that the leaders and the banks are urging for responsible economists to promote for the population at large.",
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                        "text": "The only way people can repay the debt is by cutting their living standards very drastically. It means agreeing to shift their pension plans from defined benefit plans - when you know what you're going to get - into just \"defined contribution plans,\" where you put money in, like into a roach motel, and you don't know what's coming out.",
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                        "text": "The most serious problems lie in the financial sphere, where the economy's debt overhead has grown more rapidly than the 'real' economy's ability to carry this debt. [...] The essence of the global financial bubble is that savings are diverted to inflate the stock market, bond market and real estate prices rather than to build new factories and employ more labor.",
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                        "text": "So the Bush-Obama administration has taken a fiscal stance diametrically opposed to that of the patron saint of free enterprise. While escalating war in Afghanistan and maintaining over 850 military bases around the world, the administration has run up the national debt that Smith decried. By shifting the tax burden off property and off rent-seeking monopolies - above all, off the financial sector - this policy has raised America's cost of living and doing business, thereby undercutting its competitive power and running up larger and larger foreign debt.",
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